In the corporate world, a pre-determined ladder is presented. Marking a path of how to make your way up to success. Laying out clear steps to go along with your journey. When it comes to the entertainment industry, there is no ladder. While many have searched for it or tried to copy other’s paths to success, it is an industry of unique journeys, requiring everyone to find their own way.
It is not a surprise that there is a lack of guidance for performers pursuing a career in entertainment, but it can be just as jarring for those working behind the scenes. For a highly visible industry, finding the way in feels nearly impossible. Those behind the scenes in the entertainment industry seem to always have a mystic map to follow to find your way in Hollywood.
Emily Capello and Haley Muraleedharan’s podcast “How To Make It?” set out to answer that very question everyone asks when trying to make it in Hollywood. Each guest shares their unique journey into showbiz and how they continue to navigate through it, including guests such as Margaret Cho, Donnie Wahlberg, and Chelsea Culter. I got to chat with Emily about the inspiration behind their podcast and what she has learned from hearing dozens of stories of making it in such a competitive industry.
AM: Let’s start in the beginning. How did you and Haley come up with the concept for this podcast?
EC: Initially, it was a different show. We met on LinkedIn; it will be 5 years this summer. We both were working at Warner Bros in different countries. She was working on Ted Lasso [in England], and I was working on either Sex Lives of College Girls or Young Sheldon [in Los Angeles]. We just bonded over being in the same company, different country kind of thing. She’s an intimacy coordinator, and her stories are crazy, but even being a cast assistant/producer assistant/director assistant, it’s little things where you need someone to check in with and be like, “Is this insane?” “What is this job I’m doing?” And for the good stuff, too, such as when I was trying to set up wifi in the La La Land cafe. A lot of weird highs and lows.
Initially, the show was going to be about us interviewing famous best friends. We thought this was not feasible at this point in our careers. Then, I don’t know what the bridge was; I just think I was so sick of the
Just so sick. I think it was like the Architectural Digest Mansion tours and Hot Ones, super fun and smart interview questions I'm blown away by. But it’s another famous, super fun like how late night show talk how fun it is to be famous, and I just was like, I once had to drive back from Burbank to Pasadena because the type of lemonade that I had gotten for someone was supposed to be in a bottle and I had delivered it in a plastic cup. Logically, people had to work their way up, but no one talks about it. So I wanted to hear from my favorite people who I considered “made it” to feel less alone.
AM: There has been a wide variety of guests, actors, writers, comedians, singers, and more on the show. After interviewing such a wide range of working creatives, what similarities have you noticed in their journeys?
EC: The main theme seems to be fear, which I love because nobody knows what they're doing, nobody knows how to get to where they want to be, people end up in places they didn't think they were going to, and just this, like the uncertainty of stability no matter what anyone is doing no one feels like they're never going to have to find their next job and I've worked with very successful people in all areas who are you know older In their 60s and 70s saying oh my God I always think this is going to be my last project so that seems to span all areas of entertainment. This combination of impostor syndrome, or not even imposter syndrome, kind of like okay, I've seen it arrive somewhere, and I have no idea what's happening ahead of me.
AM: What was your idea of making it when you first started the podcast, and how has that changed over the course of 20+ episodes?
EC: We interviewed John Magaro; we do a chapter title for every episode that encapsulates your career in a chapter title. And we recently added “so far.” John was innovative and hashtagged the year as this is how he feels in 2024. So, for me, it’s shifting.
Right now, it’s these tiny little micro things because I think that's the only way to approach this industry sanely. I have broken things down into these little accomplishments that make me feel like I'm on my way to where I want to be. Nothing frustrates me more than when a week or a month goes by, and I don't feel like I have taken enough steps or acted as if I'm going to attain these goals. Yesterday, I posted my first video on Instagram. It was just me being stupid and something I thought was funny, and I didn’t care if people watched it. I did something I was afraid to do. I'm now less afraid to do this in the future, and I can't feel like I'm not trying in this area. I want to find representation for acting in the next year; it doesn’t have to be a big name. It could be someone up-and-coming like me and passionate about helping people achieve their goals. It’s continuing to get guests to be on the podcast. It’s taking steps in the right direction, and if I realize I’m five miles the wrong way, it’s taking that, knowing it’s not over there. I think what I've learned through our guests is just the goal post - I think Chelsea Cutler, are very first guest, was like, “The goalpost is constantly moving,” and “I want to play Madison Square Garden, but I also have to be cognizant of the things that I'm doing now in the goals that I've achieved now.” She's shortly after sold out Radio City, which is a huge accomplishment, you know, and will always be a huge accomplishment.
AM: Has there been a story from a guest that changed your view on the industry?
EC: Everyone brings usually brings a story. We usually ask one of our staple questions, a story of a time, like how Haley and I bonded, ask themselves, “What am I doing?”
Some people you know really so much to the question that they're like, oh my Go,d they're so many, but then we do get some very specific we get some very specific examples, and I think what I've respected and felt better about the most is there have been several stories with embarrassment at the center and just feeling bad about yourself. That's really helpful because I don't get that when I'm touring someone's beautiful Brownstone in the West Village people would love to live in. John’s story of going into an audition and waiting outside the room and the director hearing that it was him or the casting director I don't remember who it was and going oh my God, she's not right for this, and then having to walk in and do the audition. We had Tim Downie talk about doing a scene he felt super degraded in terms of having to do whatever it took to be in the soap opera sea of cow poop. Then, another episode we haven't released yet, which was recent as we interviewed a very famous drag performer, and she talked about a role when she was younger where she was the token trans woman and knowing internally she wasn’t comfortable with. This was years before people like Haley were on set as intimacy coordinators.
Just this level, God, I don't feel good about myself right now,w but they did that and then kept going anyway, and I think that's really helpful because the first sign of embarrassment and just feeling like I don't like myself a lot of people from continuing.
AM: When you first started the podcast, did you bring on people you already were already connected with or slide into people’s dm?
EC: There have been two guests that we knew ahead of time. We have interviewed 24 ( we have an interview on Monday, so that’ll be 25). That’s a small percentage of the total; I knew Ryan George through networking. He lives in Canada; it wasn’t like we went to elementary school together. Haley knew Tim Downie from theater school, but everyone else has been from- quite frankly, working my ass off to connect with publicists and doing other ridiculous things to make people notice me. There are so many examples, Sona Movesisan from “Conan O’Brien Need A Friend” was because my old apartment complex was attached to the SiruisXM building, and as a major Conan fan, he's who inspired me to make the show, I went to a taping because I saw a sign posted across from the parking garage saying there would be a taping and I emailed someone I had been networking with for a year and she got me a ticket. Then, while he was warming up the crowd- you can look this up on YouTube as it went viral. I sassed him in front of the crowd, and we went back and forth for a bit. I sent it to Sona, and then Donnie came out of that. He commented on our post, and I could’ve just said, “That was cool,” but I found the contacts and Contacts, and I, you know, put in what had been said, and I sent you cut videos specific to him, and Margaret Cho was a result of a review that I wrote for collider of one of her films of the Tribeca film festival and I you know I didn't even know that she had posted on her Instagram but I love the film and I you know made contact with the publicist who I still have his lovelies names Ken we still have a relationship he's he connected me with peppermint for That interview.
John Macario was a result of me going to the bathroom during the Tribeca Film Festival and bumping into him in the lobby. There is a clip on our Instagram where I had to pee, and we had a back-and-forth, and he talked about how he didn’t want to see himself on screen. Another interesting thing to learn about a successful actor, and so he was waiting in the lobby, and I made a fool out of myself, and then I reached out to his publicist and was like, John may remember me as a girl who made a fool of herself and sent the review. From there, you continued to build, and I now have relationships with multiple publicists because their clients had a good time. Our content is valuable enough that they want to keep working with us.
So it is 6 am on Monday morning, and sending cold emails, and it’s getting so many no’s. I got six no’s this week from people who I love, and I just have to be like, “At least they replied.” I have gotten one interview through damning, one tentative that I'm I need to chase next week, but I wouldn't I don't think that's it I try it's not super fruitful. I am a social media manager, and some of the clients get this; How would you ever dig this out?
It's dealing with the rejection and the embarrassment and the being like, oh, no one's taking me seriously and going, yeah, they're not because no one knows who the hell you are, but we're going to keep going 'cause I have no other choice.
AM: This is my favorite question you ask your guests, so I’m going to throw it back to you: What is the best piece of advice you’ve ever gotten?
EC: I think it came from my Dad. Unfortunately, he doesn’t work in the industry. I told him when he retired, he should come out and say he’s an agent or something, and I would be a nepobaby. He’s had a varied career and pivoted so hard to support his family multiple times. He pivoted and pivoted and ended up owning his own business for 15 years. He has always stressed to remember your why.
When he was younger, he wanted to be a hockey coach. He did coach my brothers when we were kids. For whatever reason, he decided he wasn’t going to be an NHL coach, so he realized that owning this business when he started out was minuscule. He ended up making it this big thing; he was able to mentor his employees and kind of achieve that in a way he didn't think it was going to be when he was younger. So I think remembering your why. I LOVE OUR PODCAST SO MUCH because we aren't huge yet, but the comments we get are so lovely. Our feedback from our guests, saying they loved certain questions because we’re not- we do touch on projects they have going on and characters that are significant to them, but we aren’t asking about people they know. I did on Sydney [Cole Alexander] episode, but that is because I’m obsessed with Severence, but I attached it to an emotional connection that I had and not like “What’s Ben Stiller like?” We’ve gotten such lovely comments that even if there are two comments on it, if someone says, “I'm so glad I found this. this is such a thoughtful conversation.” That’s why I am making art I'm proud of.
It's not trending, it’s not- again, get that money. If you're good at The Tick Tock dances and following the trends, you do you. I know I’m not going pro in that area; I know I’m not good at that; it’s not my thing. For me, it’s remembering your core. I wanted to be an actor and someone with a creative voice since I was four. I remember watching The Wizard of Oz, and I just remember going, “Someone is filming this.” There was a moment was I was 2 or 3 and watching Leave It to Beaver, and I remember being very confused about how we were watching these people in their house and felt like we were violating their privacy. At a certain point, I learned this is something that is being made, and I wanted to make things. My middle name is Dorothy, so I thought it was for me. I wore my hair like that and wore dresses like that. I saw myself in her. I wanted to make things that people saw themselves in. On my phone screen
It says, “Come on, kid, this is your dream” It's a kick in the ass every time I look at it; what am I doing am I proud of what I'm doing. Haley worked within a film that the cast was all the factors. One of them reached out to us. It was on a day when I was walking around and was like, am I wasting my time cuz I take so much time on our video content? I don't use AI I don't slap the captions on. I wanted to look neat and clean, and I really cared about it. So I took a lot of time with the captions, and one of the actors reached out there and said the captions were fantastic and helpful for me. And I was like, I'm even going to put more time into it. If this one person is able to enjoy our conversations, I will take the time to make sure what I'm putting out is concise and clear. This is a very long answer, but my dad is always saying What is your why I remember your why. I think that gets lost so quickly for people they forget, and sometimes it's to make money, and that they forget, and sometimes that's to make money. And that may be to provide for their family. Understanding why you are doing things is most critical in life. Not a day goes by that I don’t think about what I am doing and make sure I am aligned with that in some way.
Here is the second best piece of advice. My Aunt battled breast cancer, and I remember sitting with her during chemotherapy. I don't know how this came up. I feel like I was maybe asking for advice or talking about something I was going through, and she said to me, I think she was in her 40s or early 50s; she told Emily's life is so long. everyone always talks about how short it is.”
You would think someone going through that kind of thing would be like, “Life is so short,” but she said I have lived so many lives at this point, and people are in such a goddamn Rush all the time, especially now, especially people around her age. I also hate how people are so, and so I didn't get this until I was X, but I'm like, you're still putting an age on it even if it's 50. So I think another thing that's important in remembering your why is that it allows you space to breathe. If I get my first acting role when I’m 60, I’m about to turn 32, but let's round it down to say that 30 years from now, I could act for 20 years. That’s a long time! Just being open to whatever is going on is when I get into universe stuff. I do think that you shouldn’t look at what you're doing as incorrect or at the wrong time.
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You can stream “How To Make It?” On Spotify, Apple Podcast, and YouTube.
You can follow them on Instagram to stay up to date on their latest guests.
Interviewed by Ashley Murphy
