Witchcraft has always held a complex and multifaceted role in the media, shaped by historical shifts, societal anxieties, and evolving cultural values. From its early associations with fear and the supernatural to its more modern depictions as a tool for empowerment, witchcraft has undergone a significant transformation, especially in the hands of creators who draw from both personal experience and scholarship. Sarah Lyons, a Brooklyn-based witch, filmmaker, and writer, offers a unique perspective on this transformation. As the author of “Revolutionary Witchcraft: A Guide to Magical Activism” and the director of the horror film “The Woods”, Lyons delves into the intersections of witchcraft, horror, and media representation in a way that challenges conventions and deepens our understanding of both genres.
The Evolution of Witchcraft in Popular Culture
Lyons begins by reflecting on how witchcraft has evolved over the years, especially within popular culture. "Witchcraft has gone through so many changes in the last couple of years alone," she observes, pointing out how Wicca, once the dominant form of modern witchcraft, no longer holds a monopoly on the practice. "I remember when I was growing up, what people knew about witchcraft, what I knew about witchcraft, was like Wicca," Lyons explains. Wicca, a modern pagan religion that emerged in the mid-20th century, became synonymous with witchcraft for many people, largely due to its prominence in popular media and the public imagination.
However, as Lyons notes, Wicca is only one facet of a much broader and older tradition. "Wicca is not what witchcraft has historically been," she emphasizes, pointing to the resurgence of interest in other forms of magic and occultism in recent years. This resurgence has been fueled by a wealth of new scholarship, podcasts, books, and media that explore the diverse and often radical history of witchcraft. For practitioners like Lyons, this shift has been liberating. "I think it's a very exciting time to practice witchcraft," she says, highlighting the increased visibility and accessibility of different traditions and perspectives.
At the same time, Lyons acknowledges the tension between the commercialization of witchcraft and its more subversive, underground roots. "There's the capitalist cooption of it," she says, referencing the way witchcraft has been commodified in recent years. The rise of "witch kits" in retail stores, social media influencers promoting witchy aesthetics, and the commercialization of occult symbols have made witchcraft more accessible but also more consumer-driven. "I appreciate and am more in favor of witchcraft being what it is now than what it was a decade or two ago," Lyons adds, but she remains wary of the ways in which capitalism has diluted its radical potential.
Witchcraft in Media: The Fantastical vs. the Real
Media portrayals of witchcraft have long oscillated between fantasy and reality, a theme Lyons explores in depth. As someone who grew up watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Charmed, she understands the appeal of fantastical witches on screen. "There's something to be said for the fantastical and fun," she admits, acknowledging that these media portrayals often spark curiosity and wonder about real-life witchcraft. Shows like Sabrina the Teenage Witch may not accurately reflect the nuances of witchcraft, but they provide an accessible entry point for many people, especially young viewers.
Yet, Lyons is also critical of the tendency to reduce witchcraft to a simple metaphor for empowerment, especially in modern media. "With a lot of stuff in media these days, it feels like we've decided what's empowering and what's not empowering," she observes. While witchcraft can certainly be about empowerment, Lyons argues that it is far more complex than that. "The word 'witch' is a gender-neutral term," she points out, highlighting the diverse cultural and historical contexts in which witchcraft has appeared.
Lyons’ own work seeks to explore this complexity. In her book Revolutionary Witchcraft, she examines the radical potential of witchcraft as a tool for political and social change, challenging the mainstream narrative that often equates witchcraft solely with empowerment for women. Instead, she delves into its anti-authoritarian roots and its potential as a form of resistance against oppressive systems.
Horror as Catharsis: The Power of Fear
In addition to her work as a writer, Lyons is also a filmmaker, and her film The Woods explores the psychological and emotional depths of horror. For Lyons, horror is a genre that offers unique opportunities for catharsis. "Fear is one of the most primal human emotions," she explains, and horror films allow audiences to engage with that fear in a controlled environment. "Horror relies on the body," Lyons says, emphasizing the physical and visceral nature of the genre. Unlike many other forms of art, which tend to prioritize intellectual or aesthetic experiences, horror is deeply emotional, often provoking powerful reactions in viewers.
Lyons also believes that horror is one of the most creatively free genres. "You put something a little spooky in there and you can talk about anything," she says. Horror, by its very nature, allows filmmakers to explore taboo subjects, challenge societal norms, and push the boundaries of storytelling. "You can set it in any time period. You can tackle any matter. You can cast any people you want," Lyons notes, pointing out that few other genres offer this kind of creative freedom.
Despite its emotional and creative power, however, horror is often marginalized in the world of "high art." Lyons notes the tendency for horror films to be overlooked during awards season, even when they feature standout performances or innovative filmmaking. "I think it's interesting that those genres that deal foremost with the body—horror, comedy, erotic fiction—are pushed to the side because of that reason," she says, observing how the cultural gatekeepers of "high art" often privilege intellectualism over emotional engagement. For Lyons, this is a false dichotomy. Horror, she argues, is just as capable of offering profound insights into the human condition as any other genre—perhaps even more so, given its ability to tap into our most primal fears and desires.
Witchcraft and Horror: A Subversive Intersection
The intersection of witchcraft and horror is particularly fascinating, as both are often seen as subversive forces that challenge societal norms. Witches, especially in horror films, are frequently portrayed as dangerous, malevolent figures—symbols of chaos, destruction, and the unknown. But as Lyons points out, witchcraft is also a source of power, especially for those who have been marginalized or oppressed. "The witch, in this context, becomes a figure of resistance," Lyons says, someone who challenges the status quo and refuses to be controlled.
In horror films, witches are often depicted as ambiguous figures, neither wholly good nor wholly evil. This ambiguity, Lyons suggests, reflects the complexity of witchcraft itself, which cannot be neatly categorized or defined. "Witchcraft isn't a defined thing. It's ambiguous," she explains, and this ambiguity is part of what makes it so compelling, both in real life and in media. It defies easy categorization, existing in the liminal space between good and evil, power and fear, magic and reality.
In The Woods, Lyons explores these themes of ambiguity and power, using horror as a vehicle to delve into the psychological and emotional depths of trauma and the human condition. The film follows a group of characters as they confront both external dangers, past traumas and their own inner demons. By blending elements of folk horror with psychological thriller, Lyons creates a narrative that is as unsettling as it is thought-provoking, offering viewers a glimpse into the darker, more mysterious aspects of humanity.
Conclusion: Witchcraft, Horror, and the Media
Sarah Lyons' work as a writer and filmmaker challenges conventional portrayals of witchcraft and horror, offering a more nuanced and multifaceted exploration of these themes. Lyons' reflections on witchcraft, horror, and the media invite us to reconsider our assumptions about these subjects. Witchcraft, she argues, is not just a symbol of empowerment—it is a dynamic, evolving practice with deep historical roots and radical potential. And horror, far from being a lowbrow genre, offers a powerful space for confronting our deepest fears and desires. In both cases, Lyons sees the potential for transformation, liberation, and, perhaps, a little magic.
I had the honor to sit down and have a great conversation with the budding dance-electronica pop-star, Matty Marz. She is absolutely so lovely, fabulous, and has such an engaging way with words. In September, she released her 7 track debut album entitled m.w.u. In our conversation, we talked about the album release and she also walked me through her creative process, she reminisced on her musical background, she reveled in the great changes she’s experienced since transitioning, and she talks about her aspirations and the trajectory of her career. Matty is a refreshing addition to pop-music and it was a pleasure to get to know her better as an artist and as a person. After reading this interview, stream m.w.u on your preferred music platform and follow Matty to keep up with her.
K: So I was stalking your website, you know, doing my research, and I saw this quote and it said, "Matty can steer the creative process any way they see fit." So if you can elaborate on this, I would love to know how your creative process begins. What is that initial light bulb moment that draws you to the studio?
Matty: “It's a little bit different every time. I think what's great about being an artist. And, you know, I feel like I have my own personal definition of being an artist. And for me, it's kind of being able to really pinpoint every aspect of the creative process. And 90% of this album that I'm releasing is executive produced by myself and almost entirely written by myself alone. So I think with having all of these different creative facets, that go into with the overall persona of "Matty Mars" is, I think I'm able to really understand what it is I'm trying to accomplish with each song. And yeah, recently I've been-- I feel like my writing style has been a lot more freeform and a lot more kind of, um, kind of almost instantaneous where I feel like I get an idea and then I'm like, okay, this is, I have this melody line and like, let's see where that melody line can take us. And then, you know, sometimes it's kind of the opposite where I have either a word or a saying that I'm like, okay, this is really intriguing to me. Like, how do I want to elaborate on that on that. But I think a lot of what I loved about making this album was that there was a lot of points where I got to kind of follow the creative like line or vision like step by step which was kind of like I don't really know where this is going but I know it's going to take me somewhere great and I think the best examples of that are on "Moment with you," “ain't sorry,” and then the final song "Sing You to Sleep." And I felt like those all were kind of songs where they were like kind of slightly different formats of like that same kind of expression. But like with "Moment with you" I was like feeling this intense level of like you know being unwanted and being kind of not seen for who I really am and kind of underappreciated. And that kind of led me to, you know, the first like verse in the pre-chorus kind of being written. I was like, okay, like I have something here. Let's follow that. And then similarly with “Sing You to Sleep,” I had this beautiful guitar melody that I was like, you know, really kind of feeling very down and very upset and kind of in a dark place. And I was like, okay, let me see what comes out of it. And it felt like a very much like a freeform kind of slam poetry kind of vibe and then it grew into this, you know, magnificent kind of like electronic ballad. And then on the opposite end with ain't sorry, I kind of was so I was frustrated at like this specific person. And I remember I was like drinking in the studio and I was just kind of like making this like really obnoxious beat. And one of my friends who he played guitar on it was kind of there with me. We were just like totally f*cking around like blasting out the bass and just whatever. And then I got on the mic and then the intro to that song, which is like, I don't care that you think you're so f*cking cool, you're a f*cking cunt, and I hope you eat sh*t. It was like literally like my first take, I was just so upset and angry, and I was like, how do I transmute this to a song? And I think that's again, like that, I had that initial thing and I was like, okay, it has to start like that, but like, where is it gonna go? So I think that's kind of what is amazing about being able to steer the boat by myself and being like, okay, like, this is the vision, this is what I'm envisioning for it.”
K: What are some things that you need in order to make a good recording session? Like, what are some things that you need on your person or just to just to get the vibe? Like what kind of vibe are you going for in the studio?
Matty: “I love that question. I feel like it's again, it's kind of, I'm kind of low maintenance. Like I'm not too like, I need like green M&M's in the room. Like it's like, I think it's kind of a lot of the times too, it's just like my computer and like I have my, you know, SM7B microphone and I kind of do a lot of scratch vocals and, and kind of stuff in my bedroom, which is kind of nice. So I'm able to kind of have this very relaxed sensibility. But when I am in the studio, I think, I always like to just have, you know, I think positive and good people around you is like the first and foremost. I'm very kind of picky with who I work with in that regard, both as like producers or songwriters, but also like my engineer. And like I have like one person, you know, shout out his name's Ryan Schumer. And I've worked with him so much over the years, and I just think our friendship was kind of born out of him being so intrigued by what I was doing and just taking a lot of TLC with me through that process. So I feel like that's kind of the most important from the jump. You have to have good energy and good people around you. But I also just kind of like, I love like, I'm such a long island girl, I feel like I love like a little snack. I'm like, I'm very much just like a sweet treat girly. So like a little sweet treat or like, sometimes like a bagel and like a huge coffee.”
K: What helps you to work and get through a creative’s block like a musician's block or writer’s block?
Matty: “Also, amazing question. I think I'm kind of in the midst of that, like right now, I feel like I've been, so I've been transitioning for the past like year and I think it's going to be a year and two months, this coming month, so in a few weeks. And during that time, my whole life has changed. The way that I view myself has changed, artistry is changing. And there's still a lot that goes into that. It's kind of like crafting a new identity, which is very intense and very jarring. And so I think with the release of this album, I feel a lot of like, whoa, like the last two and a half years, it's kind of now summed up and something that people can listen to. And like kind of being like, well, what's next? So I think the only way to really kind of get through it, I think, is to like indulge in the experience of being alive and just like go out and seek new opportunities and new, you know, moments and things to kind of find your personhood. And I think that none of us would have any creativity if we weren't living our lives and finding ways to be authentic and to express that via whatever medium we have. And I just think that's kind of the most important thing is in order to have a POV, you have to go out and live your life. And so I feel like my current point of view is very much changed and is changing. So whatever I do next, I feel like will be kind of like my puberty, like Olivia Rodrigo “Sour” album of like just being like boys suck;, like new life, new person. But I think I'm slowly starting to find things that I'm like really passionate about writing again. And I'm like, okay, like, she's in there. It's just kind of like, again, putting those building blocks of being like, I want to go outside and touch grass.”
K: I want to know how your trans experience and transitioning has transformed your perspective on music. How does your identity inform the story that you want to tell as a musician?
Matty: “I think it's so beautiful. I think this has been the best decision I've ever made, I think, in my life. Like it's so gratifying. Like I love being a girl. It's like, I think, I feel like I'm still so early in that I'm not even quite like a woman yet. I think that kind of takes a few more years and just like lots more experience. But I think it's really been like world changing. And it's just been so cool. I think like there's so many incredible trans artists that I look up to that, you know, are in music now that have been in music. You know, I think one of, her name is escaping me, but one of the earliest cases of a good trans musician was the woman who created the synthesizer and like popularized it. And back in like the late sixties I believe. And then you obviously have examples like Sophie and like more recently someone who I adore is Ethel Cain and I just think that I hope my position I think in this in this life is only just started to make sense and I think I'm going to leave a very big impact not only for the trans community, but kind of as a multi-disciplinary artist. And it's just been so wonderful. I mean, like I've watched myself really come into a brand new body and person this last year. And it's been like the coolest experience. I think I've ever had the privilege of having.”
Matty Marz Photographed by Carina Allen
K: “What was that divine universe calling telling you, Matty, go into music? What really pushed you to start singing and recording?
Matty: “It definitely was, you know, I've been doing this a long, long time. And I think it really started when I was a kid. I like, I've always been very like forthright and being like, this is who I am. This is what I want to do. And so it started off in like musical theater settings when I was like, a wee won like very teeny. And so I knew I loved to be on stage. I knew I loved to perform. And as I got into my like pre-teens and then into my early teens, I realized I was like, oh, well, like I actually have a really deep respect for classical music. And I really want to explore that. And I think I was just so invested in really learning a vocal technique. So I started to study like, you know, jazz and kind of a classical vocal stylings to kind of help me broaden my range. And like I had a vocal teacher, I feel like for many pivotal years that was like preteen into, you know, early teenage years. And then it led me into composition, which was basically like I was just so inspired by like orchestral, you know, music and kind of old school stylings like that. And I was like, okay, well, you know, that's really cool. And I think that was a lane that I thought I was gonna go into early on. But I, as I grew, and I was like, kind of came into my own, I was like, oh, wow, like pop music. I can like be a character essentially, and still talk about everything I wanna talk about, but do it in a way that's so much more theatrical and kind of encompassing rather than just like, sing this aria and then you're done. So for me, I think it was really an early on thing. And I just think that I've picked up a lot of different facets along the way. And so I started producing and like writing my own music probably around like 14, 15. And that was like, you know, bare bones just like jumping on either garage band and then eventually logic and I'm kind of being like, okay, what are my thoughts on this? And dance music played a really big part of that. I was like, you can make classical music, but with synthesizers, I was like, that's crazy. So I think it's kind of always been a little birdie in my ear and kind of being like, this is what I'm put on this earth to do. I can't do a lot, but what I can do, I'm like, excellent.”
K: With the upcoming release of M.W.U., what is the story behind the project and what can fans and listeners alike expect to hear theme-wise and musically?
Matty: “Theme-wise, it's, I think people are gonna be really surprised by this record at how in depth it is. It touches upon so many, I think, interpersonal feelings that I know we all share, between loneliness, isolation, self-contemplation, problem with self-image. So I think upon first listen, people really be like, "Oh wow, there's a lot more here than kind of what meets the eye”. And I'm really excited for that because I feel like I have never really put out a full project like this and it's kind of the first time I'm like here is a collection of thoughts and feelings that totally represents like the last two and a half years of my life. And also the process of me exploring my artistry and kind of trying to push myself to make things that are a little bit more daring and edgy and kind of cool. So it's a lot of that, but it's also definitely a dance record, like through and through. It's, there's so much like inspiration that I was drawing from just like music that I listened to daily and things that I was just like, okay, like, how do I make like my song "EPILLl" for example, when I was writing it, originally it was not intended for me. It was actually like originally a pitch song and some of these songs kind of started like that. They were like not my intention on releasing when I was like living in LA and I was like, okay, let's just like make things to try to give to other artists. But that song specifically, I was, you know, my friend who was producing, Akira, he was just kind of playing around. And I was like, this is so dark and scary. I was like, how do I make like a vampire nightclub song? Like I was like, what would that sound like? And so then we just, I started to like write little quips and little lines that felt really like dirty and fun and sexy and edgy. And then like, that's, it just came about so quickly. And I think there's a lot of spontaneity to this record. It's really exciting and it's kind of of the moment. And so yeah, I'm just, I'm excited for people to listen to the vulnerability as much as like the highs and like the adrenaline and the euphoria. 'Cause there is a loose story of just kind of, in my brain, it's like the, and the beginnings of a night out into the early mornings when you're just left alone to your own thoughts. And my personal favorite song in the album is "Sing Me to Sleep," which is the closing record. And it's like a five and a half minute kind of power ballad meets like electronic, euphoric dance record about feeling so alone, but then realizing that like you always have yourself to rely on. And I just-- it's so interesting. I like-- it's like easily like the most experimental song I've ever made. And I did it totally alone. So I'm just like, that's the one I'm like, I really feel like brings the whole album together.”
K: Are there going to be any visuals or like music videos planned to coincide with the project?
Matty: “I'm definitely in the process of working that out now. I would love to put out another visual. We have one for, we have like a visualizer for “EPILL”, which was like me in the woods in this like gothic kind of like dress. And then I have a music video for the single "Lacazette” we did. Which I again, very interesting too, because I shot that back last September. So it's essentially like a year since we did that. And that came at a time where I was still very fresh on my on estrogen and my transition. So I look so much different even from that standpoint to like where I am now. So it's like, I'm kind of just like, whoa, like so much has happened in a year. But we definitely are working on trying to do a visual for at least one more. I don't know which one, but I do have an idea. And yeah, this next project that we're I'm starting to put together is going to be like fully a visual record and a concept album. So I'm kind of like, okay, it's about to get super real.”
K: And will you be touring this project?
Matty: “I would love to. I mean, we're in talks with some people that I might be opening for on some tour dates. I think next spring. So I'm just really excited. I think this whole year has felt kind of like gearing up and putting like the building blocks in place. So I think by next year, we're really ready to pull the trigger. I have a show this weekend, which I'm very excited about. And yeah, I just want to like go out and f*ck it up and meet my fans. And it's I think also the first time I have a budding fan base, which is so cool. I've never really experienced that before, but to have people from all over the place kind of be like, oh my God, I listen to you every day. Oh my God, this is my favorite song. And it's like, this album has been the first that I'm getting a taste of that. So I'm like, it's just, it's very, very cool.”
K: I know I saw on Spotify, like that your top listeners are like from Sydney, Australia. Like I saw Melbourne, Australia too. So like, how does that feel? And do you have a name for your fan base? Like what's your army called?
Matty:I want to call them Martians. Cause I'm like, Matty and Martians. Like that makes so much sense. Feels very like that feels right. And it's just so cool. It's like, that's so validating. It's like, I've never even been overseas yet. And like, I had someone recently sent me a video of like my song being played in like a store in I think it was the UK or like a sub-sec of the UK. And I was just kind of like, that's just crazy. 'Cause it's very much just like, you do this, and then it comes out and you're like, it's no longer mine. It's kind of, you know, I don't even equate it to like myself half the time. I think it's a that's a way to like compartmentalize being like, okay, like onto the next thing. But I think when you sit with it and you're like, oh, wow, like I'm being perceived like all over the place is, it's just so cool and so amazing. And I just again like want to be a good positive influence and you know any fan's life and just kind of be someone who people can look up to as like a trailblazer in my own right in my own life.
K: So I saw on your website that you were on American Idol. So how was that experience and do you have any key takeaways from that experience?
Matty: “It was so interesting. It was something I never thought I would ever do. And it definitely was like kind of fell into my lap. So when I was living in LA, I was getting ready to move back to New York. I got a phone call one day. to my lap. So when I was living in LA, I was getting ready to move back to New York. I got a phone call one day and I pick it up and I go, Hi, usually I don't pick up spam calls. And he's like, "Hi, I'm looking for Matty." And I was like, "Speaking." And he was like, "Hi, my name's Peter Cohen and I'm one of the executive producers with American Idol. How are you?" And I was just like, ", what? I was like, I think you have the wrong number. And he was like, no, like, he's like, I found your, you know, some of your work online and just like, I've seen footage of you performing and I just, I think you'd be a great fit for the show. And I was like, okay. So, you know, one thing came to another. He invited me to audition for the executive producers. So I got to like skip a lot of the rounds 'cause I think there's several rounds of like auditioning and and I kind of got to go to the front of the line, which was kind of cool. And then I did that and didn't hear anything, moved back to New York and was like, okay, I guess it didn't happen. And then it literally within a few days, I got a call back and they were like, you have to come to LA like literally like next week. And I was like, okay. So I got on a plane and I flew back and yeah I auditioned for the judges and then was able to get through to the next round and then got eliminated after that. So it was very interesting very surreal kind of experience of how quick it was but it was so positive. I think my manager came with me at the time. We were like fresh, just signed together. And she was like, well, I don't have to worry about your PR training because you handled being on camera so well. And I'm like, OK, amazing. And it's so funny that none of it got aired, which is the silliest part. But I think just the memories of being seen as a singer and having this whole group of people being like Okay, you have to go over here for camera and you have to do these shots and it was very very very cool and very surreal And I'll definitely meet the judges. I think at an award show one day and I'll be like remember me.”
K: That’s crazy they really didn’t air it?
Matty: “No, none of it got aired. Which is the craziest part because we filmed so much. Like we were up at like 5am for like three days in a row and then the second round we had to be up at like 4 am and it's like full days of shooting. And it's just none of it. It's like me and so many others. Like people, so many people didn't get shown at all. And it's just, it's very interesting the way reality TV works and like the way that they can kind of skew your story or like what they need in order for their own plot line that they're kind of building. So I'm not offended by any of it. Honestly, I did not even really want to... It's not really a part of my brand. And so I think that it was just kind of like a fun thing to do. So I'm not mad that it got not shown.”
K: I haven't seen American Idol in ages. So is it still like the same way where it's like a bunch of people, you know, they have the little numbers on their chest? Is it still like that same format?
Matty:“What did we do? We didn't have that. So we, they had several rounds of audition. So it's like, if you got through to like audition for the judges and like be on the show, they had like a LA week, they had like Nashville week. So there was several pockets of groups of people that like had already gone through the audition process and gotten their gold cards. And I think we were like the last group because it was kind of a fast turnaround where they were like, okay, we need to get this done. And we shot at this ranch in LA that was in Northern LA, so it was kind of like a desert. So in the morning, it was freezing. And then at night, it was like, or like midday, it was like so, so hot, then it would get freezing again. And so it wasn't really like that, but we had, I think there was like 45 or 50 of us. And like slowly but steadily, we like went through the motions and kind of you know went through everybody. So it was more personal I guess because I remember back in the day it was like you wait outside of this like you know they're in this like big like conference. It wasn't like that it was it was a lot more like I think a little bit bougier it was nice we were actually in Agora Hills where we were staying. So I was like, the Doja Cat song actually. And after being there, I was like, I get it. Like, and so yeah, it was a lot more like personal and kind of the ranch was so beautiful. It was like this very like Midwest kind of vibe in the middle of the desert”
K:I know a lot of musicians don't just stay in music and they get into modeling and acting, etc. Do you kind of see that for yourself in your career? Is there anything that you want to branch outward to?
Matty: “I think so I think eventually I feel like it's, it only makes sense. I mean, music that I think the thing in order to be successful and that you have to like love it and like ferociously attack it kind of over and over again until, you know, something clicks for you. And I think that I always want to be in music, but I think the avenues in which that I want to create music probably will change the older I get. You know, I'm interested in composing for film, I'm interested in, you know, I grew up acting. And so I'm sure there will be a lot of different avenues I take throughout my creative career, but a big thing for me is I'm really just interested in building my brand and like building kind of like a, I don't know, just empire. I feel like that's so like whatever, but I really do want to build a means for myself to be able to profit off of everything that I've put into it more than just like music because it's very much, there's such a fast turnover rate of like, you know, artists making music and then, you know, you're hot one day, you're off the next. So, the older I get, I think that's always been the back of my mind of being able to create like a whole presence. And then eventually I would love to help other creatives and like, you know, I would love to be in a position where I have money and, you know, status to be able to put on new artists that are queer or trans or People that I just think are incredible that no one else is gonna give them a shot. So I want to give them a shot, but yeah, I think my talents are are ever vast. So I feel like that's always the possibility But I want to sell out Madison Square Garden before any of that sh*t.”
Matty Marz Photographed by Carina Allen
K: So for these last couple questions, I'm going to call this like the rapid fire dream questions. I just want to know your dreams. So, dream featured artists?
Matty: “Dream featured artists, honestly, it has to either be CharliXCX or SZA. Those are my two as of the last like 10 years. I'm like And like, those were my two, like, as of the last, like, 10 years. I'm like, I think those were my two girls.”
K: Dream performance venue?
Matty: “Madison Square Garden.”
K: Dream recording location?
Matty: “Oh my God, I would love to do something in Malibu by the beach and like be able to like just have some time to like, zen out or maybe like Italy, maybe like off the coastline of Italy.”
K: Dream brand collaboration?
Matty: “I was actually just thinking about this the other day. I feel like I would love to do like Yves Saint Laurent or like Chanel because I feel I love like, I'm very like into the simplest, like minimalist kind of like little accessories here and there, cute pair of heels, got the Vivian Westwood on and just kind of keep it very chic.”
K: Dream film co-star?
Matty: “Only, 'cause I have a huge crush on him. I feel like so many others. Jacob Alordi. Like what? You think, no, literally. I'm like, beautiful. Like, oh! I didn't even actually, I just saw this movie that my friend, maybe watched "The Kissing Booth," never seen it.I didn't know about it. And I was movie that my friend maybe watched "The Kissing Booth." Never seen it, I didn't even know about it. And I was like, he was like a baby in that.”
K: So that's about all of the questions that I have. Is there anything else that you wanna say about the release of “M.W.U”?
Matty: “No, just that this is the beginning and world domination is right around the corner.”
Rachel Bochner is on a journey, and she's inviting you to follow along. The NYC-based artist is no stranger to laying her cards on the table, with her 2020 debut single "Purple," a poppy ballad on the fear of falling in love too fast, introducing listeners not only to Bochner's philosophy on love but also her trepidations. Her second release, "Be Happier," continued to gradually and candidly ease listeners into her mind, highlighting her struggle with mental health in an ambient, almost hazy lament. Bochner continued to churn out tracks throughout the pandemic, with all her songs highlighting not just her vulnerability, but her relatability.
With twenty-plus songs, three EPs, and one nationwide tour later, Bochner is not slowing down yet. As she prepares to release her latest EP, Lovergirl, I had the privilege of chatting with Bochner about her, the start of her career, and what it means to give yourself so wholly to your art.
Daniella Fishman: How did you get your start in music?
Rachel Bochner: I've been a singer and a music lover my whole life, but I didn't really start writing until 2018. I thought my love for music meant I should work at a label or something in that vein, but once I dipped my toes into the writing/artist side of things, it was so clear what I needed to do.
DF: Who were your early musical inspirations, specifically when you first started writing in 2018?
RB: At that point, I was inspired by Lana Del Rey, Lorde, and also artists who are songwriters, Julia Michaels, Taylor Swift, 1975, Maggie Rogers, and Frank Oceans. What a trip down memory lane…
DF: What about your experience interning with A+R that drew you to the creative side of things rather than the business side of the industry? Has your understanding of "the business" shifted how you produce your art?
RB: I think it was just a perfect storm. I started my internship right as I started taking my writing more seriously, and I could just feel this pit form in my stomach that would grow every day at my internship, telling me that what I was most passionate about was writing and sharing music that was meaningful to me. The music landscape is of course constantly changing, but having that taste of the industry side of things has helped me approach my artist career from a strategic standpoint in addition to my love and passion for the art and creative side.
DF: Why this sound? What draws you to the noise of pop music? Are there any other genres that you want to experiment with at some point?
RB: As I've become more comfortable in my own skin as an artist, I don't think that much about how to achieve a certain sound or style, or even how to adhere to a genre. I make music that feels right and sounds right, whatever that means for the song and the moment it's being created in. Every project I work on ends up being an opportunity to experiment, but it feels like a very organic sort of wandering and playing with different sounds and instrumentation, and vibes.
DF: You once described your music as the "soundtrack to the coming-of-age movie you wish you were the main character of." Which movie is that for you? And does it still hold true with this latest release?
RB: In a lot of ways, my upcoming EP Lovergirl feels like the most mature body of work I've created, but it also feels very reminiscent of the giddy and emotional, and sometimes naive nature of a coming-of-age film. I don't know that I can point to a specific movie that feels like it encapsulates the many lives I feel like I've somehow lived, but maybe a bit like the TV series Heartstopper, if it were based around people realizing they're queer in their 20, 's instead of high school.
DF: Your early songs are emblematic of the stagnation and isolation felt by everyone during the pandemic, but your new music seems poppier, almost freer in theme and experience. How has the pandemic shifted your opinion of yourself as an artist? What has it taught you? What has it held you back from (if anything)?
RB: I feel like my artist career started as COVID did since the world shut down pretty soon after my first official release. The isolation, self-reflection, and downtime I experienced during the pandemic actually allowed me to form the beginnings of an artist identity. I learned so much about who I am as a writer, an artist, and a creative person in general during that time, which helped me feel really confident and prepared to move to NYC and quit my full-time day job in 2021.
DF: Talk to me a bit more about your decision to go full into music in 2021. What was the catalyst for quitting your job?
RB: During COVID, I wanted to move closer to NYC, the hub of the music. During the summer of '21, I moved back home after college and tried to find community in the music scene at home. I tried to find people to collaborate with, producers and songwriters; it really takes a minute to learn how to hold your own in a room with other musicians. But, I wanted to learn to be able to move into the city and be in the middle of it all! I worked a full-time PR job from 2020-2021, and once I had saved up enough to leave, I quit and moved here.
DF: Walk me through the writing process for your lyrics. Do you have any literary influences when putting pen to paper? Similarly, what is your songwriting process? How do you start working on a song? Do you write music or lyrics first?
RB: Especially as of lately, my songwriting process has been pretty solitary initially. I make sense of what I'm feeling and conceptualizing and beginning to write. Sometimes, I'll just finish the song alone if the words are pouring out that way. Other times, I like to bring the start of a song to any of the writers I know and love working with to help me finish and make it stronger. I'm inspired and influenced by a lot of things… what I'm feeling or going through, the music I'm listening to at the time, a particularly cool title of a book or poem, or a phrase that sticks with me on a billboard. Whatever the inspiration is, I try to just let it flow as it wants to and not try to force it. What I need to say will make its way out one way or another.
DF: You call your fans "ghosties." Where did the nickname come from, and how have your fans embraced it?
RB: I put out a song called 'Ghosted My Therapist' and the merch for it had this adorable cartoon strip-esque design with a little ghost character in it. Everyone who got the merch really loved the little ghostie, and it became a recurring character in visuals and merch, and somewhere along the way it just felt so right to call my fans' ghosties' - me, Tiger, my frequent collaborator Alex, and a bunch of fans now all have matching ghostie tattoos… it's so special to me!!!
DF: In recent years, Pop music has shifted girlier and gayer. At this point in your career, and at this point in pop music history, your catalog fits perfectly into the current sonic zeitgeist. What is your take on the rise of queer/sapphic-pop? Do you identify your music under that label?
RB: It's always interesting that music written by a queer or sapphic artist has to have that additional classifier of "gay" or "queer" pop. In a way, it's really powerful for representation, for people needing to feel seen and find music that they can relate to. It's great to normalize queer artists doing queer things in mainstream media. It's great to make music when queerness is being celebrated. With Chappel Roan, Renneé Rapp, etc, it's a really exciting and celebratory place to be in music right now. It's exciting to me to be a part of it! I make pop music, but I don't want to just be known for making one kind of music. People always want to emphasize the "queer" part of "queer pop," but one day it will all be considered general "Pop."
DF: You frequently collaborate with Tiger Darrow and recently released a collaboration with Xana. Now that you are four years into your music career is collaborating with and chatting with other artists easier? How has your confidence as an individual artist grown with your past releases?
RB: I love working with my friends. It's so rewarding and awesome and surreal to create with people you love and watch it be received as passionately as you feel about it. Collaborating is such an important part of the process for me - especially in terms of production. Having been at this for 4 years in a way makes me more comfortable in whatever room I'm in, but mostly because I just have seen over and over that no one ever really knows what they're doing, no matter how long they've been doing it. We're all just trying our best.
DF: Speaking of Xana, you recently wrapped your first official tour with her! Talk to me about that. Was it just like you were expecting? Were there any unexpected bumps in the road?
RB: I loved touring with Xana. We're great friends, so it just felt like getting to hang out with your besties every day. I traveled with an awesome band and team, and all in all, it was a pretty smooth ride. I was on the road for about 3 weeks, and I thought I would be so ready to get back home at the end of it. When the last show rolled around, though, I remember my tour manager Alex and I looking at each other like… I could go another 3 weeks, couldn't you? Getting to play to so many new people, seeing places I've never been before, really seeing and feeling my music impacting people… it's pretty amazing.
DF: Tell me about "Alchemical," the music video, and the song's meaning.
RB: To put it simply, Alchemical is just a good, old-yearning song. It's inspired by being so fully captivated by your desire to know someone and be close to them, and letting yourself give in to it. As for the music video, I think it's a beautiful visual depiction of wanting and indulging.
DF: You've been teasing your upcoming track, "Groupie," across your social media. Can you share the inspiration for that song?
RB: Groupie is similar to Alchemical in the sense that it's about desire, but Groupie is more of a naive fascination with something new and shiny. It's about being enamored with someone glamorously motivated by the spotlight and not minding being just another body in the crowd as long as you're first on the guest list. It lives in a city light-adorned moment before the smoke clears and the limerence high fades.
DF: With most of your work being autobiographical, how do you separate Rachel Bochner, the individual, from Rachel Bochner, the musician? Do you feel like you need to balance the two?
RB: As I've grown as an artist, my music has gotten more and more personal. When I was just starting out writing, I thought it's almost easier to let yourself be a little more "academic." I was really trying to get more confident with my writing, so sometimes I would write to a prompt or text my songwriting friends for topics or song titles for inspiration. I feel like in the beginning my songs were a mix of things that felt personal to me, that were coming from authentic emotions. But the songs weren't necessarily about my life in a 100% honest way. With that, it was easier to separate my emotions, but as I've come into myself as an artist, I feel like my music has developed into a way to be honest and express myself. Now that it's personal, it makes releasing music a bit scarier. It's like a little diary entry! I found that if I'm writing about something specific to me, and when someone listens to it, they relate to it in a profound way. Somehow, the way I relay my experience makes it more relatable. It's a scary responsibility, but that's what I have to say.
DF: With you seemingly amping up to release a new EP, what do you hope your fans will retain from it, message-wise? What do you hope to showcase as you come into this new chapter of your career?
RB: This project was important for me because it involved writing about coming to terms with one's sexuality. This EP feels like not just a milestone in my career but in my life. I have one more single to release before the EP comes out; the song is called "Without A Doubt," and it'll be out on September 6th!
Lovergirl is the accidental, ultra-romanticized diary of the past year of my life. The project documents the way my heart moved and stumbled and shapeshifted in that time. In many ways, 'Lovergirl' is a character, a version of myself that was yearning to feel something I couldn't name (until I could). It's a celebration of queerness, the highs of falling in love, the anxieties of unreciprocated feelings, and the warmth of experiencing things you never knew existed. The project is so special to me, and I know it will resonate so deeply with the right people. I just hope it's able to find those people.
DF: What are you listening to right now/this summer?
RB: Brat!!!!! So much brat. Tommy Lefroy, MUNA, the Japanese House. Oh, and Chappell Roan…obviously.
Written by Daniella Fishman
Photography by Diana Victoria, @dianavictxria.jpg
Production by Mark Bluemle
PA: Chloe-Kaleah Stewart
Styling by Jaiden Alexis
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